There’s nowhere without gods on that side either.
In the SRS thread, an FTM recently posted an essay that was very copypasta worthy in my opinion and this isn't the first time I've seen that kind of thing from Kiwi Farms, so I thought we should make a thread for them.
https://kiwifarms.net/threads/srs-a...sociated-horrors.76786/page-254#post-10773687Hiya. I've been lurking around for a while, mostly out of curiosity. I was interested in your discussions about surgery/transgenderism, and I thought you all might like a few anecdotes/input from someone in that circle. I'll try to word this as objectively/passively as I can, so unfortunately I won't use any of the fun words you guys use. It's also very long.
Spoiler: "Spergery" under the spoiler, as one would call it
To preface this, maybe it's a good idea to start off with my position in all of this. As mentioned before, I'm in circles where many are transgender (maybe "participating in transgenderism" is a more appropriate term - there's traditional old-fashion trans people, and then there's a bulk of what you discuss here in this forum, which I would label transgenderism). I'm trans myself. That being said, I'm not a pure SJW. I'm open to any opinion, including criticism. I often lurk in Kiwifarms because it opens me up to a lot of opinions, so I'm not trapped in an echo chamber. You might gain some insights from this, or you might think I'm a snitch sucking up to farmers. But it'd be of your interest to read nonetheless.
I'll mostly talk about thouse who participate transgenderism here. So, here's some answers to your question, from someone trans, in trans circles. Why do people "troon out"? Specifically, why do they go through the process of SRS? Don't they know it's life-altering? The aftercare involved, especially with MtF SRS? The results? The function?
The answer is one you already know: because they think SRS gives them the real thing. Seriously. I know this has been discussed plenty before here, about the community being an echochamber of "it's just like the real thing!", but I think there's a few crucial details missing.
Before reading this thread, I myself wasn't truly aware of the risks, complications, and how life-altering SRS is. Many trans people - or at least those in my circle - did not either. Of course, I knew surgery came with risks, and yes duh it will change my life - but not the full extent of the pain, horror, and often regret that comes with it. Yes, I know that it "wouldn't be the real thing" - but somehow my mind translated that to "close enough" instead of "it's far from even 'close enough'", if that makes any sense. Most of what I see and hear are success stories, or simply the fact that people had the surgery, end of. Why is this?
There's a few factors, but a major one is the big, black hole of information (or lack thereof). As I said - I thought it was just regular cosmetic surgery. Many trans people knew just as much as I did. Normal people aren't surgeons or medically educated. They don't know that your nerves get rearranged, about dehiscence, the possibility of ripped stitches, the fact that your genitals won't magically grow muscles or reconnect all the nerves. Seriously, they don't, unless they research so deeply until they find this thread. It's like a magician's box. Rabbit goes in, duck goes out. How does it happen? Nobody knows, but as long as it works... (or so they think, I suppose).
Why don't they research something in-depth before going through with such an invasive procedure, then? That's a good argument - but wouldn't you trust your surgeon that if he said he'd amputate an infected leg, he'd amputate it with as little experimental methods as possible? Same thing with expecting your electrician or whatever to do the job. I'm not saying this is right - SRS is elective and, like all cosmetic surgeries, one should do proper, in-depth research, because the effects are mostly social vs. function/life-and-death (e.g. the leg amputation example). But I'm sure you understand my thought process. One would expect high-quality (maybe even decent at least) care and results from someone of high expectations, i.e. the surgeon. This is a thought shared across the trans community.
Even if you're skeptical like me, however - I ended up on this thread after all - even if you research until you die, the reality is that surgeons gatekeep their worst results. So does the community. Search information about gender-affirming surgeries is genuinely like being trapped in an echochamber. You've all read about it in this thread. It's so impossible to find this sort of info because, for reasons even I don't know why, it's taboo to talk about botched SRS results. Perhaps it's the fact that it perpetuates the fear of "it'll never be a real thing". While yes, it's true, it reminds them exactly that. That they'll never be a real man, woman, whatever they identify as. And as someone from this side of the circle, I know this, and this really hurts hearing it despite knowing how true it is. You have a choice of saying "yeah, it isn't the real thing" (which makes you seem trans for the sake of being trans, which is seen as bad, because "trans men are men" and "trans women are women") and "no, it's actually the real thing" (which makes you seem delusional, even in the most delusional trans circles, which is also bad).
Even if you've done all your research, there's pure desperation and poor judgement. I can't exactly accuse people wanting SRS being fetishists - it's not my place to say whether that's true or not, because some of these people genuinely do want the surgery without being freaks about it - but it's not hard to see the same thing with lots of cosmetic surgeries. Breast implants (on cis women). Veneers. Fillers. Botox. It's hard to see far into the future - one doesn't often think about what they'll look like when they're old, what clothes they wear, what kind of fashion they're into, etc. It's even harder to see the long-term effects of such surgeries long, long after the hype dies, maybe ten, twenty years down the road. Breast implants often puncture or need to be renewed (afaik implants need replacing after 10-20 years - not a lot of people know this). Veneers blast your teeth down to its roots, now you have nothing left and it hurts all the time. Same thing with SRS. It's very easy to say "yep, I'll actually still want it when I'm old" - and folks say that for a lot of things, and it might not even be SRS. That stupid tattoo might've been a good idea when you were 18. Now, ten, twenty years later? It's stupid, and you think - why did I get that? But that's simply human nature. We're shit at predicting the future because the present eggs on at us to have it now. Unfortunately, this is catastrophic when it's an SRS decision you're making. I wouldn't even say it's consumerist behaviour. For many, it's poor judgement.
Alright - let's just say, one goes through SRS. It's terrible and it sucks. Why still recommend it to others? Because the train of thought for these people - and it's not far from folks like me and you - is that just because it's botched with this doctor, it doesn't mean the other doctor will do the same thing. This is a crucial problem: trans folks don't think the problem lies with the surgery itself, but with the doctors who perform it. While I'm sure there's people out there who have severe consumer's regret and want others to be trapped in the same thing so they're not alone, there's plenty more out there who criticise the doctor and not the surgery, hence they still recommend it to others. Of course, you folks here know it's both the surgeon and their practice. But they don't have the same information you might have.
On that note, I too noticed that there's a lot more MtFs undergoing SRS than FtMs. Some FtMs are even dead-set on not wanting bottom surgery. I can't really say why the numbers are like this exactly, but for me personally, it's because I don't want to lose my sexual function. I'm AFAB (assigned female at birth), so if I want to pass as male, I've got options like packers, STP (stand-to-pee) devices, sex toys, etc. If I want to speculate, it's because MtFs have to tuck if they want to pass, and bulges are the least feminine thing ever. Caitlyn Jenner's (Bruce Jenner) quote comes to mind. "I'm tired of tucking the damn thing in all the time". But if you're wondering about possible perceptions like FtM SRS being less "high stakes" than MtF SRS, I can't exactly answer it because I don't know.
Then there's the (very reasonable) question of, "do they seriously see each other as totally real, convincing men/women?" And the answer might vary, depending on which trans person you ask. I'm going to say yes to this question, but the answer might not be what you think it is.
I'm going to repeat again, I'm mostly talking about transgenderism here - i.e. the seeming "fad" that somehow there's so much more trans people than in the 70s or so. Funny thing is, it's directly linked to what people in the 70s don't have - it's the internet.
Many - I'd say even the majority - of trans people are chronically online. Almost 24/7, loner at school/workplace, no-social-life-outside-the-net type of deal. As a result, their online personas - where they present themselves as their identified gender - blurs and bleeds into the perception of themselves IRL. Because they solely live online, appearances no longer matter. You can be whatever you'd like to be, online. You can be a translesbian she/her or a xe/xem agender transboy, and why would that need to reflect to your IRL appearance when all your internet friends see your profile, and a textual representation of your likely non-passing voice? Everyone on the internet experiences this in some way - you probably haven't looked at the IRL appearance of your farmer buddy whom you frequently talk to in this thread, but their "appearance" - no matter how blurred, vague, or abstract - formulates something. It is real and convincing to them, because that's all they see. If they say they're a she/her, your voice fills that avatar in with a vague female voice. I hope you see my reasoning here.
I'd even argue that's why, besides biology and restrains of the human body, many trans people (especially MtFs) do not pass. Trans celebrities pass especially well in most cases because, amongst having access to best surgeons/healthcare providers obviously, they life in the real world, where people constantly perceive them. Most other trans folks don't, and all there is to perceive is their word. Even if they post their face pics, videos, voiceclips - that's hardly convincing to the brain who's grown to see them as their avatar/online persona, and nothing else.
It also doesn't help that they live in echo chambers, regardless of what "flavour" of trans you are. If you're just surrounded by trans people with the same identity as yours, then you're blindsided (Gibes comes to mind). Since they're trans too, obviously they're not going to point out how clockable you are. Your FtM friends won't tell you that you look like a 13-year old pre-puberty boy at best. Your MtF friends won't tell you that your lack of waist and stubble is giving you away, from miles away.
Why they're chronically online, there's usually one classic reason: autism (or severe mental illness/neurodivergency). That, or severe parental neglect/abuse, or both. I'm not kidding when I say, almost every trans person I've met, they have autism/display symptoms of it, and/or had severe trauma early on in their childhood (including myself). Obviously not every autistic or mentally ill person becomes trans, so this isn't a cause-and-effect, but my best guess is that lack of social skills > being on the internet > finding a place within a community. That community happpened to be filled with trans people. Then they're trapped in the echo chamber. If you're lucky like I am to be at least aware of the echo chamber existing, you'll end up a transmedicalist (a term for someone who believes that transgender resources should be gated behind professional, medical intervention - someone many trans folks don't like). Otherwise, you'll likely be a cow on Kiwifarms, because - to the outside world - you look genuinely delusional. But when you're in that circle, you're very much a true and honest man/woman because you and your trans friends can only see a username and an avatar. The brain fills out the rest. I hope my train of thought is understandable here.
I especially want to discuss autism/neurodivegency/mental illness here, because there's a correlation between detransitioning and untreated mental illness that's so hard to ignore - and one trans people somehow overlook, including myself. Before, I was used to meeting mentally ill trans people, and thought that was pretty much the norm, and didn't really question why the two comes in pair so often. It wasn't until I really wanted to "make sure" that I was trans, where I visited r/detrans, and was astounded by what I found there. Transgenderism has pushed the agenda of "just transition!" as a quick fix instead of addressing the underlying problems, confirming whether it's really gender dysphoria, or actual trauma. Are you actually transgender, or were you sexually assaulted when you were younger and want to escape the body you were assaulted in? Are you actually transgender, or did your parents shamed you in a severely sexist way that you can't stand to be associated with your gender? Somehow, it has become transphobic to ask these questions - well, obviously, it's not good manners to say that so casually - but even clinically, questioning whether your transness was a result of trauma is seen as taboo and transphobic. People don't like being proven wrong, after all.
All of this snowballs into an ugly chaos. Imagine this. You grew up in a community that cares for you when your parents wouldn't, you live in an echo chamber, and everyone around you goes "just transition! Why not!". You can see why they're so sure about being trans, because that's literally their whole life on the net, that's what their personality has grown to revolve around: being trans. They can't see out of it, and even if they tried to, confirmation bias convinces them even further. Then surgery happens, and for some, its the cold water. The wake-up call. All of the stuff before is harmless - it doesn't have any real consequence. Not even changing your name or coming out to friends count as a consequence, because all of it is reverisible. Going on hormones doesn't even count, because in their minds, that's just them being "halfway there". Then surgery happens - something real and irreversible, then they start asking the questions they didn't want to ask beforehand, because somehow, being wrong/hurting your ego will harm you. Too late. The surgery has done worse.
I suppose, to round this off - what about me? What position am I in to say all this stuff, despite being trans myself?
PLing here, and lots of it: I'm here to "test" my transness, if you could call it that. I'm worried of falling into the trap of regret. I haven't read a thread like this before, and it was like a wake-up call to me that a.) there's so much I don't know about physical transitioning and b.) do I really want this for myself? While I did not possess dysphoria, it was strangely enjoyable for me to be assumed a man when I was a young child (like, 9 years old kind of deal). I now identify as nonbinary. I'm looking into T - and perhaps top surgery - to reflect it. The thing is, do I really want these procedures because I'm nonbinary, or because I just really like appearing masculine/androgynous, having a deeper voice, and a flatter chest, independent of being trans? What if I just enjoy androgyny, without calling myself nonbinary/trans?
It took a long time to acknowledge it, but my father had been absent or abusive almost all my life, while my mother had been enabling. I'd been helpless to it until recently. I'm also mentally ill. That is something that needs therapy, not transition. I want to make sure I'm not wanting these procedures just to escape the person that my parents berated and shamed. That being said, I'm thankful my parents vehemently disagreed with me the two times I came out, each years apart - if it weren't for them, I wouldn't be so careful about going ahead with transitioning. Most of these trans folks don't have parents that care about them. They don't go, oh, let's just wait this one out for now. I cursed my parents for being transphobic for a long time. Yeah, sure, they are - but it's somewhat a silver lining to me that, despite being transphobic, they cared for my wellbeing in a weird way, so I could be critical of my identity. Some parents of trans people kick out their trans child, then the child transitions and nobody is there to stop them - if that makes sense at all.
Transgenderism will always be a difficult topic, because it unwittingly enforces gender roles. Not a lot of trans people want to talk about this. I'd even argue that gender roles and its enforcement is what perpetuates transgenderism. One of the reasons why I am nonbinary and not a binary man is because I a.) did not wish to be a man and b.) hated the toxicity, heavy expectation & responsibility, and loneliness that comes with being a man. Yet being a woman sucks, because a.) I hate being in this body, and b.) it makes me cringe whenever I'm associated with anything feminine. Are you trans, or do you just hate enforced gender roles? Do I really hate being a woman, or is it because I don't like how I'm treated by society?
Maybe at this point, you're thinking, "you're so close to getting it". Maybe I am. Maybe I'll detrans at some point in the future and laugh at this post, thinking how foolish I'd been not to immediately make sense of it even though I was the one typing it out myself. Or maybe I'll solidify my identity and decide to go ahead, after having exhausted all the sources in the world and intensive therapy. Maybe I'll just identify as nonbinary so that I'm neither treated as man or woman, but something people have to investigate entirely altogether. Whichever way it is, I'm going to be taking my time about it, instead of going through with... whatever this is.
Thank you for reading.
ETA: Worried that people might see this as me defending my community. Not really - and if it comes off that way, it's not my intention. I'd just like to provide what people in such circles - my circle - think, and why their thought process accumulates to such decisions. Also, some of them might be just downright fetishists, and you might be right. This is just my perception, from my own community.